The office used to be a physical space we’d attend daily. Now, it’s a human-centric concept. In this episode, your host Sabine Ehm is joined by Rhebeckha D’Silva to discuss the office of the future. 

Meet the guest

Rhebeckha D’Silva is the head of global real estate at Revolut, located in their London offices. She has over a decade of experience in corporate real estate across various industries. Prior to joining Revolut, she held a similar position at Deliveroo, another fast-growing UK tech company. Even though her job title says real estate, her focus is more on the human aspect rather than on the physical space. 


Sabine met Rhebeckha at Inspired Summer, where she gave a speech on CRE, and so Sabine asked her to join the podcast. Listen to the following clips to learn more about creating a human-centric workplace experience. 

“The key to keeping and retaining talent is through people, and making sure that the space is somewhere they want to come to. For me, I feel [the office] is the culture. It’s the first physical representation of it.” – Rhebeckha D’Silva


In her previous positions, Rhebeckha’s CRE team sat under finance or procurement. Instead, at Revolut, real estate is within the people team. This is because their main focus is servicing their customers, including their employees. What would be traditionally called ‘corporate real estate strategy’, is instead called ‘workplace experience’. 


Formerly, the office was a place separate from personal life. This meant that real estate managers would prioritize the physical office space. Today, much of that has changed. CRE managers and workplace experience teams are working to retain talent. This is done by bringing people together, in human-centric offices and remotely. Providing quality experiences to all staff members and keeping employees engaged remotely is Rhebeckha’s forte.  

“What works in Tokyo, may not work in Russia. So, we want to make sure we’re being culturally sensitive to whatever makes sense in that market. We are very flexible.” – Rhebeckha D’Silva


The pandemic changed the way large companies see their office spaces. And, employees working from home have significantly decreased the need for 1:1 seating space ratios. Revolut’s workplace team took a similar path as many other companies: they looked at the data. First, they measured how people are working. By surveying the masses, they were able to find out how employees are feeling, and what their views are on the office. Do they feel supported? Are they happy? Do they have all of the technology they need? The workplace team also interviewed team leads to gain greater insight. With this, they were able to create a blueprint model from thousands of data points collected over 6 months. 


This lead to the creation of RevLabs. The focus will be on health, wellness, and collaboration. The new offices will feature soft seating, breakout areas, and chill-out zones. Moreover, teams will have the ability to choose what they’d like from the blueprint. The data has shown that this method will work, however, Rhebeckha insists that if the survey indicates something different, the plans will change again. Ie, RevLabs will work now, but, will they work in the future? 

“If you look at the stock market, it’s regulated. Everybody knows where to go to get stock prices, so you know what people paid yesterday. [In the real estate market], we’ve got no clue.” – Rhebeckha D’Silva


In each episode, Sabine asks the same question: if there was one thing you could magically change, what would it be? Rhebeckha had two answers. One was that she would always be provided with an accurate headcount prediction. This is something that all corporate real estate managers would appreciate, but is seemingly impossible. Second, she asked for a regulated real estate industry. 


Rhebeckha points out that the financial industry is regulated. If you want to know how much a stock sold for yesterday, you can find that information. In real estate, no such thing exists. If you’re interested in knowing what the latest deals were in Zurich, there’s no central database to look to. Trying to budget an office development in a new country is difficult when you can’t accurately predict costs. Moreover, Sabine brings up how comparability is impossible. Some spaces may be more affordable, but less desirable. So, how can you know the difference? 




Corporate real estate has changed, and company headquarters are no longer the sole place where offices are located. Companies are now making more human-centric choices as a majority of their workforce is working remotely. At Revolut, Rhebeckha argues that even the name ‘CRE’ is not aligned with their mission, so they call it the workplace team instead. CRE teams across the industry are honing in on how to retain employees and keep them happy. Rhebeckha and her team have made great strides at Revolut by surveying their workforce and making significant changes.

Traditional office design is static. In this episode, Thomas Glatte and Sabine Ehm discuss how office spaces of the future will be flexible, supportive spaces. 

Meet the guest

Thomas Glatte is the Director of Global Real Estate at BASF, the world’s largest chemical company. His family has over 200 years of construction industry experience, so he grew up surrounded by experts. After studying civil engineering, he became a construction manager in the late 90s. After a recession in Germany’s construction industry, he moved to Southeast Asia and began working for a chemical company. He describes this time as a “full-time business trip”.


In 2005, he returned to Germany to take over the Real Estate Department at BASF. In time, this evolved into the Global Real Estate Department, caring for the entire lifecycle of the company’s assets. The company’s portfolio is now worth 6 billion euros and is made up of 1100 sites in 95 countries. The portfolio has a wide range of real estate types, from small sales offices to the largest chemical site in the world.


Thomas’ favorite part of BASF is this diversity. Each project comes with its own set of requirements, so there’s always a new challenge. Listen to the following clips to learn more about Thomas’ take on CRE. 

“We need to be aware that centralization comes with a lot of benefits. But, we also have to confess that it brings a significant amount of bureaucracy.” – Thomas Glatte

Roughly 250 people make up BASF’s real estate team. It once numbered more than 1000. This is partly due to outsourcing to service providers, but also because of decentralization, or what they call, “embedding back to business units”. In this clip, Thomas and Sabine discuss the trend of centralizing operations, only to later revert to previous on-site structures. This is due to agility. Although centralization can have immediate monetary benefits, more often than not, they increase wait times and decrease flexibility.


Having operations on-site allows companies to quickly react to business needs, as well as know their customers better. Despite the higher initial costs, this will lead to more savings in the long run. “We may have to give up some of the synergy savings to regain agility, as you earn more from [being agile]. It’s a discussion of top line and bottom line.”

“We are in the process of redefining our workplaces conceptually. As in, how they should be designed, but also by the site footprint. [It’s] no surprise that after this ‘exercise’ we need significantly less office space than we used to have.” – Thomas Glatte



BASF is in the process of reducing the size of their Moscow offices by 40%. Other office spaces will soon follow suit. The corporate real estate team is moving away from assigned desks and toward a more flexible layout. To do so, they have been analyzing their assets: what do we own? What do we lease? How long do these leases last? What are our needs? 


The pandemic has only accelerated this. BASF has conducted surveys of their workforce and found that most of them would like to continue to work from home a few days a week. Thomas also performed an “unofficial survey” among his real estate colleagues. He asked them to send a photo of their at-home offices. About 50% had high-quality working spaces, but the other half did not. Thomas went on to say that a huge factor was their location. In Hong Kong, for example, his colleagues live in smaller homes, which makes working from home challenging.

“Everyone thinks an agile work environment is like having a sofa, fancy chairs, and a Starbucks in the office. This is not agility. Agility relates to constant change.” – Thomas Glatte


To create an agile work environment, you need to build a system to support it. When Thomas is working on a restructuring project, he uses a “digital building twin”. This is a mockup of the building and the movement of employees. Having this information allows him to modify the layout according to the needs of the building. Additionally, there must be a team that can plan for these new reconfigurations. Thomas likened this to coworking businesses: these companies set up their spaces according to demand. 


The traditional workplace setup comes from the line-management structure of businesses. According to Thomas, this is going to change. Companies are moving towards project-oriented management. Office configurations will need to change accordingly. Project teams start small, grow to large numbers, and then shrink again. Having flexible spaces that can expand and shrink with the maturity of the project will be essential. 



Companies are looking to create more flexible spaces for their employees. Thomas is a firm believer in this movement and understands what agility requires. It often starts with the decentralization of operations. Next, they must create supportive environments and office spaces. Companies also need to listen to their employees, and BASF has done so through surveys. Many employees would like to continue to work from home, so the CRE team is working on managing this. BASF’s real estate strategy is in good hands. It will be interesting to see how the company progresses in the future. 


In the past, employee experience and satisfaction were neglected in corporate real estate strategy. The pandemic has been a huge wake-up-call for companies to understand it’s importance. In this episode, Brittney Van Matre and Sabine Ehm discuss prioritizing the individual employee experience. 

Meet the guest

Brittney Van Matre is the former Director of Workplace Strategy and Operations at Nike. She started her career in consulting, which gave her the opportunity to work closely with many industries. After four years, she began working at Nike, where she remained for the following 11 years. Brittney worked in multiple areas of the company, giving her insight into how different teams work best. She started in their Internal Audit Practice, then decided to move into Product Creation, which she describes as the “heart and soul” of the company. After a while, she decided to move back into a more consulting-style position in the Marketplace, where she remained until recently. 


It was in Marketplace where Brittney began her journey with consumer experience. For four years, Brittney worked one-on-one with retailers transforming spaces to improve the overall experience of Nike customers. This position left her well-prepared for workplace strategy. 


Listen to the following clips to learn more about Brittney and her understanding of how to best create a healthy workplace environment. 


“There are a lot of parallels between the consumer experience world and the employee experience world because actually, consumers are also employees.” – Brittney Van Matre


Brittney started the conversation by stressing the importance of involving your workforce in corporate real estate decision making. It is crucial to have employee experience and wellbeing at the center of the conversation when “looking at what kind of real estate are we going to procure, what are we going to divest of, how we are going to create services across our different campuses”. 


Over the course of a year and a half, Brittney and her team created the Nike Workplace Experience Strategy. It is a holistic approach, however, at its core is the employee experience. Previously, the individual and their needs and desires were not always looked at first. Often, the company focused on real estate play, or industry trends. Now, Brittney was able to refocus their strategy to be employee-centric. 


“I think what will be important, is that companies keep that openness to actually listen to their employees. There were a lot of surveys done in the past year, but again, we’re humans, we change a lot.” – Sabine Ehm


The pandemic changed everything. Companies are now deciding what their approach will be to employee attendance. Many big tech businesses have given freedom to their staff to choose whether or not they want to come into the office at all. Remote-style working has gained popularity, which has also created an interesting dynamic for talent retention. If a highly skilled worker can make a good living and work from wherever they want, why wouldn’t they? However, on the other hand, how much freedom is too much? 


Nike has chosen a more conservative approach, requiring employees to come into the office 3 days a week. There are different schools of thought on which path is the better one. Looking into the future, there’s little we can predict, but there are steps we can take. 


“Women and mothers have suffered more in the pandemic than their male counterparts because of the nature of being a mother, and having to take care of the household. A lot of women are in positions now that it’s not really conducive for them to go into an office 3 days a week. The dynamics have changed.” – Brittney Van Matre


Throughout this episode, Brittney and Sabine stress the importance of understanding the individual needs of each employee. Since the pandemic forced everyone to work from home, women were impacted on a greater scale due to care-taking roles and household responsibilities. 


In this clip, Sabine refers to an interview with Arianna Huffington where she discussed how the workplace as we know it comes form an era where mostly men were in the office. They didn’t need to separate their private and their work lives because there was someone at home taking care of it; this doesn’t cater to the needs that we have today. 


“We are still operating based on the industrial revolution mindset. Go to this specific location, clock in, do your work, and go home”. The pandemic has totally disrupted this. It will be interesting to see which businesses revert back to old practices, and those that move with the times. Brittney then questioned what the true meaning of “the office” is. If it’s not a building we should spend time in daily, then what is it? Brittney went on to describe a new version of company headquarters, where its purpose is to facilitate collaboration and events, as opposed to cubicles. 


“Everybody is human at work. Everybody is bringing their humanness to work, whether they know it or like it or are even remotely aware of it, they’re bringing it to work. In my opinion, the corporate space is quite an unconscious space. Theres a lot of people wearing masks, pretending to be something they’re not.” – Brittney Van Matre


Brittney is a certified teacher with the Search Inside Yourself Leadership Program from Google. The program is about teaching mindfulness and educating on emotional intelligence. In this clip, she speaks to how in corporate the environment, there’s often a stigma around mental health. Brittney sees this as a big opportunity when improving employee welfare. As the world emerges from the pandemic, companies must focus on the actual psychological employee experience. 



As we head back to the office, it is imperative that companies take an employee-first approach in CRE strategy. Understanding the needs or each staff member will improve overall morale. Depending on the person, these needs may be different. For example, professional women were impacted on a grater scale than their male counterparts, so businesses must figure out how to best support those individuals. Each company’s approach to individual satisfaction will determine their culture, and in turn, retention. 

The Expo Real is the largest European trade fair for real estate & investment. For Locatee, it is a great opportunity to meet with the industry and follow the latest trends and discussions. Also, to show our solution to existing partners, customers and interested parties. Above all, it is a chance to create new relationships based on mutual interests around the key topics of the Expo.


Our personal impression

It was a fantastic sight to see so many visitors at the fair in the current context of Covid-19. For long months, in-person gatherings have of course been completely cancelled. Or they had been an obvious secondary priority for organizations and people alike. But with strong safety measures in place in Germany, we could see how much the industry was keen to meet again. 


The Locatee branded booth was very well visited during the entire event. Our dashboards caught a lot of attention and created many opportunities for discussion! We were happy to see that these discussions often led to commitments to further engage in possible relationships.


It’s about the people


Among the most interesting and insightful contacts we made on site, we can name SwissLife, Roche, Aareal Bank, Fidelidade and many more. They were keen to understand the value Locatee can bring to their Corporate Real Estate programmes. 


We also had visits from existing contacts like Sebastian Wagner, Global Business Development Manager at SAP, or  Andreas Doelle from MeteoViva. It was exciting to exchange ideas in person and on site. Conversations developed naturally in various directions!


Hot topics at Expo Real


Of course, among the most popular topics for discussions, “New work” and “Hybrid” were heading the lineup. We found that all companies who are currently dealing with these issues – new or not – understand the need for fast, accurate and real-time occupancy data. 


Last but not least: We were happy to find ESG also among the most discussed topics. We were getting tremendous interest from many visitors to our booth due to our case studies with MeteoViva, Sober and SwissPost. Some of them are using our solution to send data to the catering managers to avoid food waste. Others use Locatee data to inform cleaning service levels based on actual zone utilization data.


Inclusivity within a corporation directly affects the employee well-being. In this episode, Marta Lima and Sabine Ehm discuss how to bring people together within the digital workplace.

Meet the guest

Marta Lima is the innovation manager at Vodaphone and focuses on bettering the digital workplace experience. As innovation manager, Marta works to identify opportunities for technical improvement while also enhancing the remote collaboration capabilities of employees. She claims her day job is innovating, and her ‘gay job’ is co-chair of the LGBT community at Vodaphone. 

With a background in computer engineering, Marta began working in the IoT space at Vodaphone in Lisbon. She had hard programming skills from her degree, but wanted to learn more about how to build great products. Especially, how to use various methodologies to build the products users want. Marta came across an opportunity for a 3-month international placement in London, and hopped on board. 3 months became 3 years, and she happily settled in the UK. 

Marta and her team at V-Lab are the ‘tech-side of HR’. They act as internal innovation consultants and organize many events such as hackathons and upskilling sessions. By promoting team brainstorming and co-creating, the team is able to use design thinking methodologies to improve employee well-being and workplace experiences. 

Listen to the following clips to learn more about Marta and how the V-Lab works. 

“I believe that innovation happens when someone sees something you haven’t seen. Meaning that, diversity is super important for innovation. Having that inclusivity can be something very positive when you think about innovation and creativity. I see that as a balance.” – Marta Lima


Since the pandemic, staff working remotely can no longer use the V-Lab in its traditional format. Marta and her team switched to running digital sessions but had to rework them to better fit the new online structure. In-lab, it’s easier to force participants to stay concentrated on the tasks. Remotely, participants can have many distractions, from email notifications to pets and children at home. So, the V-Lab sessions became shorter, and more direct. Instead of going through a long thinking process, they focus on one side of design thinking with 1-hour presentations or less interactive lunch and learn sessions. 


“It’s different because you don’t feel the energy of the room. You don’t get the pulse of how the session is going. On the other side, it’s much more inclusive.” – Marta Lima


The upside of remote sessions is the ability to provide higher inclusivity. Previously, sessions were run in London, and only employees in the UK were able to participate. Now, sessions can be run with staff members from the UK, India, and Egypt all at the same time. With such a diverse group of people, innovating can be made easier, as people are exposed to new ways of thinking from diverse cultural backgrounds. 


“The number one challenge that we have at this point, is that we have great tools in our personal lives. The apps and the digital services that we use day-to-day in our personal lives are really good. So, people expect the same level of experience in the workplace.” – Marta Lima


Technology is ever-changing, and we’re used to using the latest and greatest digital services. Often, employees will seek out the best technology to help them perform their work-related tasks. Although this may seem like a good idea, it presents a major problem for corporations that need to protect their data. Keeping up with the pace of technology while ensuring data privacy is a constant battle, as it can be a lengthy process to implement new services. Data protection agreements must be in place before the widespread use of new systems. The problem is to “be fast enough to give employees the right tools while keeping the data safe.”

“How do we help people, when they join the company, to feel like they belong?” – Marta Lima


In this clip, Marta speaks of an external event she attended where someone expressed issue with recent hires. They said that employees that had recently joined their organization weren’t staying long, and eventually returned to their previous jobs. This is due to remote working styles not being inclusive, and retention can be hard if people don’t feel like they belong in a company. Building social connections are key to creating an inclusive workplace environment, and not being in-office presents a major challenge. Marta is now rebuilding a platform to use AR/VR technology to promote socializing in a more fun and casual way. 


Employee well-being depends to a large part on the experience employees have within the workplace. The worplace experience in return, is now extremely reliant on technology and how employees interact with it. Marta and the V-Lab team focus on upskilling employees while promoting community support and internal socializing. Since the pandemic, remote working has come with a slew of challenges for creating social environments for staff members to flourish. Marta focuses on solving these issues with new methods and technologies.

Understanding the ways in which each employee works is the key to creating a successful customized workplace experience. In this episode, Mikkel Lyngbo Nielsen and host Sabine Ehm discuss methods of how to personalize the employee user experience.

Meet the guest

Mikkel Lyngbo Nielsen is the Chief Real Estate Officer at Ericsson. Throughout his career, Mikkel has seen numerous sides of the real estate industry. He has worked in urban planning, airport development, and for various large infrastructure projects. This varied real estate background has given him the unique advantage of comprehending different perspectives within the industry.. 


Shortly after accepting his current role with Ericsson, the COVID-19 pandemic forced everyone to work from home. Fortunately, his superiors saw this as an advantage; Mikkel did not yet know what the offices of the company looked like. With this lack of knowledge, Mikkel is leading a cross-functional project focusing on what the future offices of Ericsson will be without dwelling on the past. 


Listen to the following clips to gain insight into Mikkel’s method of predicting the future workplace. 

“Workplace experience is not tied, anymore, strictly to the physical office that you’re providing.” – Sabine Ehm


In the past, the workplace experience was only measured with variables pertaining to the physical space. Over the past decade, we’ve seen this mindset slowly change, but it accelerated by the global pandemic. The office of the future will not just simply be a singular place. Instead, it will comprise of many, such as home offices and third-party spaces. Within the world of corporate real estate, many questions have emerged about how this will work: what kind of role will the office actually play in the future? What services will we deliver? How much will we actually be in the office? How do we make it attractive? 


“Why look at it only from a workplace experience? Why not try broadening it a little and say what is the user experience?” – Mikkel Lyngbo Nielsen


The user experience of working for a company can be defined as each time a task is performed related to the job. Be it going into the office, logging on to the network from home or having a meeting in a third-party setting, each experience must be thought of when designing the workplace of the future. Mikkel suggests we think of it as a user experience instead of solely workplace, as this encompasses both HR and IT. 


“One-size fits no-one [but], we cannot come up with 120,000 solutions. How can we at least define some common patterns within the data?” – Mikkel Lyngbo Nielsen


When Mikkel joined the Ericsson team, he was under the assumption that the workforce would be back in-office within a few months. With this time crunch, Mikkel and the Office of the Future team were under immense pressure to gather good data, fast. In the summer of 2020, they performed data gathering exercises such as the Leesman survey. These data points would then answer questions such as how activities performed at home vs. in-office. 


When Mikkel interviewed employees, he found the answers to be black and white: they either enjoyed working from home or didn’t. After digging into the data, he was able to find patterns of certain activities that were difficult to perform at home. Team-focused activities, collaborations, hosting customers, were very difficult to translate virtually. After performing many interviews and workshops, Mikkel and his team found 5 different persona profiles within the company.


“There are a lot of discussions around the office [being] a lot more [about] socializing, coming together and collaborating. We very much have that view, but it’s also important to remember the 10-15% of our workforce that actually needs to focus and do most of their work from the office. How can we also make sure that they have the right environment?” – Mikkel Lyngbo Nielsen


Mikkel and his team came up with 5 different personas that each Ericsson employee would fit into. From there, the office space could be customized to better fit each location’s workforce. When beginning a new project, the team sends out a survey to understand the population of each persona at the specific location. This helps the real estate team curate the space appropriately. 


Interestingly, within the 5 personas, 3 were quite similar in that they are capable of working from home, but choose not to. However, each persona has their individual reason for choosing to go in-office, such as performing activities, working on a global team, or simply wanting to socialize and feel a part of a community. Mikkel quotes an employee, saying “I want to feel a part of something bigger than just sitting at home alone wearing my sweatpants”.



The corporate real estate community is in flux on what the office of the future will look like. Looking forward, Mikkel suggests we focus more on understanding what the entire user experience looks like, and including IT and HR in decision making. To add to this, Mikkel has developed a process of defining personas within the Ericsson workforce to be able to make educated decisions on future projects. The pandemic has changed the way we work, and this is how Ericsson is adapting. 

The CRE industry would be nothing without the CRE technology that supports it. In this episode, Melanie Mack demonstrates her deep knowledge of CRE technology and the future of the industry.


Meet the guest

Corporate real estate technology is a booming industry, and Melanie Mack is at its forefront. As head of CRE Technology at JLL overseeing EMEA, she’s first to know of the industry’s latest advancements. At JLL, Melanie’s team sells enterprise solutions that solve several CRE problems. The company has a lot of technology vendors, as well as internal software solutions. They work with clients to implement new technologies. The goals include improving space optimization, returning to work, and increasing efficiency in lease and portfolio management. 

JLL’s CRE technology team are professionals in the industry. More specifically, they are subject-matter experts for Verdantix or Gartner and also regularly contribute to leading publications. In addition, JLL has an in-house marketing and research team. This ensures they are at the forefront of knowing what the market trends are, but also where they are going and how JLL can influence them. Listen to the clips below to get an idea of Melanie’s knowledge.


“I have seen a little bit of a shift over the past 5 years in terms of the level of data that clients have, and how well, or not, it is organized. ” – Melanie Mack



One of the most important products of CRE technology is an Integrated Workplace Management System (IWMS). These are larger enterprise-level systems. Or, as Melanie puts it, the “Mercedes of real estate management software solutions.” In other words, they can be comparable to an SAP system, but with real estate capabilities. Implementing solutions of this scale requires solid data.

Over the past few years, Melanie and her team have seen a marked improvement in the quality of data they collect from their clients. Previously, they often saw data from Excel spreadsheets that went through extensive quality testing. The adage is, “bad data in is bad data out. What you’re putting into the system is what it’s going to report.”

This impressive shift in thinking can also be seen internally at JLL. In the spring of 2020, an internal data management team was created to collect data sets and turn them into business intelligence. From there, they can improve not only JLL’s decision-making, but also that of their clients.


“We’ve all gone through this working from home experiment. As we embark on this adventure to return back into the office, we have done research at JLL both within our internal teams and our external teams, and there is a percentage of up to %60+ of people that will still want to work from home in some certain capacity.” – Melanie Mack



In the short term, every customer is focused on getting back to work and getting such a project to market quickly. The way people work has changed greatly in the last year and a half; companies can’t ignore it. In the long term, Melanie predicts that big changes are coming. Business structures will be reshaped to better fit a semi-remote workforce that has multiple small centers in cities and beyond. Because of this, the traditional setup of one headquarter and one large building will be a thing of the past.


“Before, success of the workplace was less about employee engagement and more about cost and space management, all related to the underlying decisions that will happen on a portfolio. Now what we’re seeing [that] this ties to talent acquisition and where people want to go work is in these spaces that are engaging and in organizations that focus on the human experience.” – Melanie Mack



According to Melanie, the definition of what a successful workplace is has completely changed. This is mainly due to the way we perceive this success after the “work-from-home experiment”. For instance, companies used to calculate an accomplished portfolio using space optimization and cost-per-foot as their metrics. Now, companies realize the importance of human behavior and ensuring their employees are comfortable. At the end of the day, company culture immensely affects talent acquisition and employee tenure, which in turn affects the bottom line. 



Melaine Mack has over 12 years of experience in corporate real estate, and it shows. The depth of her knowledge spans across all types of companies, pertaining to their size, culture, and journeys within CRE. Moving into a post-COVID climate, companies are certain to focus on human behavior elements when designing workplace strategies. Above all, with the C-suite’s attention, the future of CRE technology is looking up.


Listen to this and other episodes of The Workplace Leader here.

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